AP Photo/Manuel Balce Ceneta
- A December Oval Office meeting on election fraud devolved into a screaming match, Axios reports.
- Sidney Powell and Michael Flynn appealed to Trump’s desire for loyalty while pushing their conspiracy theories.
- Their claims enraged White House advisor Eric Herschmann, who pushed back on their assertions.
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An early December meeting in the Oval Office with former President Donald Trump and four election conspiracy theorists devolved into a multi-hour, curse-filled screaming match that went well into the night, Axios reports.
The meeting included lawyers Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani, former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn, Overstock.com CEO Patrick Byrne, senior White House advisor Eric Herschmann, and White House staff secretary Derek Lyons. Former White House counsel Pat Cipollone, White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, and National Security Advisor Robert O’Brien also attended at various points.
Per the Axios report, at the beginning of the December 8 meeting, Herschmann wondered, “How the hell did Sidney get in the building?”
Powell came presenting what she claimed was evidence of massive election fraud undertaken by a cabal of foreign communist countries who, in her version of events, had hacked Dominion voting machines to “flip” votes from Trump to President Joe Biden. Details of the meeting were also reported by The New York Times at the time.
Even more outlandishly, Powell claimed that the federal government had the authority to issue an executive order to seize voting machines and said that Trump should appoint her to be a special counsel to investigate voter fraud. Several people in the room pushed back on her suggestions, neither of which happened.
Dominion Voting Systems has since filed defamation lawsuits against Powell and Giuliani, seeking $1.3 billion in damages in each case.
Her claims in the meeting were immediately met with skepticism by Herschmann, who pointed out that she seemed to be making completely different arguments than Giuliani, who had said that Democratic politicians and courts had improperly changed election rules prior to the November election.
Powell stunned Herschmann by stating that the case was really about election fraud and that Giuliani "hasn't understood what this case is about until just now."
In the meeting, Byrne, Powell, and Flynn tried to claim that top advisers in Trump's own administration were disloyal and not "fighters," fueling more yelling and cursing.
"You're quitting! You're a quitter! You're not fighting!" Flynn said of Herschmann before turning to Trump and adding, "Sir, we need fighters."
Herschmann responded: "Why the f--- do you keep standing up and screaming at me? If you want to come over here, come over here. If not, sit your ass down."
When questioned as to why she had lost so many lawsuits alleging election fraud, Powell reportedly said that it was because all of the judges, both state and federal, on the bench are corrupt.
"That's your argument? Herschmann responded. "Even the judges we appointed? Are you out of your f---ing mind?"
Byrne also made a number of bizarre statements during the meeting, including speaking up in support of Powell and Flynn's claims that the Department of Justice was corrupt.
"I know how this works," he said. "I bribed Hillary Clinton $18 million on behalf of the FBI for a sting operation."
At one point, Giuliani, who was on the phone, told everyone to calm down. As one attendee of the meeting told Axios: "When Rudy's the voice of reason, you know the meeting's not going well."
Later, members of the group went up to the residence, where both Herschmann and Meadows unloaded on Powell and Flynn for portraying them as disloyal.
"Don't you dare challenge me about whether I'm being supportive of the president and working hard," Meadows shouted at Flynn.